Are you feeling trapped in the cycle of perfectionism, preventing you from sharing your work with the world? If so, you’re not alone in your struggle. Discover how to embrace imperfection and unlock your true potential as we explore an eye-opening conversation with Dr. Kathy Zhang at Podcast Movement. With her background in end-of-life care, Dr. Zhang provides a unique perspective on embracing authenticity and imperfection. As a certified life coach, hypnotist, and host of The Purpose Filter podcast, she offers valuable insights on overcoming perfectionism to lead a more fulfilled and meaningful life.

Drawing from her hospice care experience, Dr. Zhang highlighted that end-of-life regrets often stem from not being genuine, not from failing to achieve perfection. Our discussion emphasized overcoming perfectionism and embracing authenticity for greater personal and professional growth. Tune in to learn how letting go of perfection can help you execute your business ideas and focus on what truly matters.

If you have an important project saved on your laptop that you’ve been meaning to start or complete but haven’t gotten around to, I want to hear from you! DM me on Instagram at MelissaLlarena with details about your project, and let’s work together to bring it to life. Your ideas deserve to be shared, and I’m here to help you make it happen!

In this episode, you will hear:

• Impact of near-death experiences on perspectives and actions
• Finding inspiration and motivation from external sources
• Pattern interruption and transformative change
• Avoiding pain and seeking pleasure on behaviors
• Making peace with doing things imperfectly
• Impact of perfectionism on taking action
• Authenticity in relationships, mental and emotional health, and physical well-being

This episode is brought to you by Fertile Imagination: A Guide For Stretching Every Mom’s Superpower For Maximum Impact – My book is now available on Amazon in its paperback version and Kindle format. Grab a free chapter on www.fertileideas.com.

DM me on Instagram @melissallarena just type the word FERTILE and I’ll share the link if that’s easier to get to fertileideas.com for all the details you need to celebrate your own Fertile Imagination! Here’s that link: https://www.instagram.com/melissallarena/ 

About Dr. Luyi Kathy Zhang

Dr. Luyi Kathy Zhang is a certified integrative life coach, hypnotist, and hospice/palliative care doctor, as well as the host of The Purpose Filter podcast. With a wealth of experience in end-of-life care, Dr. Zhang brings invaluable insights into the lessons of the dying, offering actionable shortcuts for a more fulfilled life. Her mission is to help us focus on what truly matters, enabling us to create happier, healthier, and more meaningful lives while we still have the time to enjoy them.

Quotes, that can change your perspective:

“When I talk to people who have either lost a loved one or had a life-threatening event, they’re always changed afterwards. They realize that life is short and they need to finally start doing what they’ve always wanted to do.” – Dr. Kathy Zhang

“And at the end of life, people realize that what was it all for? Like, really? What was the point of doing that because you get to the end of your life, you can’t change a damn thing. But if you’re hearing this now, maybe there’s something you can do about it.” – Dr. Kathy Zhang

“Isn’t that interesting how I could tell you all of this, but then on a day-to-day basis, I’ll get stuck and I’ll be like, okay, I cannot download this file from Dropbox, God help me, how am I gonna get through the day? Such silly things, right? So perfectionism, don’t let it get to you. That’s the big, big, big point.” – Melissa Llarena

“And so if we can take a step back and be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, perfectionism, no one cares about it at the end of life, no one. Absolutely no one. What they do care about is that they wish they had started sooner.  They wish they hadn’t let it have such a big hold over them.” – Dr. Kathy Zhang

“It sounds to me that there has to be then, once you’ve identified, okay, this is going to  bring me pain, let me avoid that, and this is the pleasure that I seek, let me run towards that. It seems to me that then at some point, there’s this, okay, it’s worth it to make peace with doing something imperfectly, because what we’re saying here is that some new behaviors and actions are gonna be taking place.” – Melissa Llarena

SHARE this episode and discover Dr. Kathy Zhang’s transformative insights on embracing imperfection and authenticity. Learn how overcoming perfectionism and being genuine can lead to greater personal and professional growth. Listen now to find out how letting go of perfection can help you bring your business ideas to life and focus on what truly matters!

Supporting Resources:

Website: https://luyikathyzhang.com/
Instagram: instagram.com/purposefilter

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About Fertile Imagination – www.fertileideas.com

You can be a great mom without giving up, shrinking, or hiding your dreams. There’s flexibility in how you pursue anything – your role, your lifestyle, and your personal and professional goals. The limitations on your dreams are waiting to be shattered. It’s time to see and seize what’s beyond your gaze. Let’s bridge your childhood daydreams with your grown-up realities. Imagine skipping with your kids along any path – you, surpassing your milestones while your kids are reaching theirs. There’s only one superpower versatile enough to stretch your thinking beyond what’s been done before: a Fertile Imagination. It’s like kryptonite for impostor syndrome and feeling stuck when it’s alert!

In Fertile Imagination, you will awaken your sleeping source of creative solutions. If you can wake up a toddler or a groggy middle schooler, then together with the stories in this book – featuring 25 guests from my podcast Unimaginable Wellness, proven tools, and personal anecdotes – we will wake up your former playmate: your imagination!

Advance Praise

“You’ll find reality-based strategies for imagining your own imperfect, fulfilling life in this book!” —MARTHA HENNESSEY, former NH State Senator

“Melissa invites the reader into a personal and deep journey about topics that are crucially important to uncover what would make a mom (and dad too) truly happy to work on…even after the kids are in bed.”

—KEN HONDA, best-selling author of Happy Money

“This book is a great purchase for moms in every stage of life. Melissa is like a great friend, honest and wise and funny, telling you about her life and asking you to reflect on yours.” —MAUREEN TURNER CAREY, librarian in Austin, TX

TRANSCRIPT

00:00:00 Melissa: I think at conferences, we in a sense have to be a little bit prepared so that we’re not caught off guard, right? And especially if you’re someone like me who’s like really observant and like you are too, if you get a sense that people are not paying attention to you or they’re, you know, like, oh, who’s this person, then we get self-conscious and then we can’t be our best selves and we can’t talk about what we do and how we help people. Until I do think that there’s a level of  general preparedness that we should all have. And at the same time, I know you’ve probably seen this in conferences where there are some people who are only elevator pitch, who are just so rehearsed and you’re like, okay, where’s the human? Where’s the person behind the brand or the business or the podcast? 

00:00:55 Melissa: Welcome to the Mom Founder Imagination Hub, your weekly podcast to inspire you to dream bigger. Plan out how you’re going to get to that next level in business. Find the energy to keep going and make sure your creative juices are flowing, so that this way you get what you really want rather than having to settle. Get ready to discover how Mom Founders have reimagined entrepreneurship and motherhood. 

00:01:16 Melissa: Ever wonder how they do it? Tune in to find out. And stretch yourself by also learning from diverse entrepreneurs who might not be moms but who have lessons you can tailor about how you can disrupt industries and step way outside of your comfort zone. I believe every mom’s superpower is her imagination. In this podcast, I’m going to give you the mindset, methods, and tools to unleash yours. Sounds good? Then keep listening.

00:01:46 Melissa: Let’s talk about perfectionism. Stick around if you are like a lot of the Mom Founders I’ve supported. So you have documents on your laptop saved. Let’s imagine an unfinished manuscript. It might be a lead magnet. It might be a list of dream podcast guests. It could be the way that you intend to pitch yourself. It could be the name of different talks that you can do that you’ve been wanting to get out the door, but you don’t feel read just right. This conversation about perfectionism is precisely for you. 

00:02:25 Melissa: And I want to be sure that you take the time to really, really hear today’s guests. I met Dr. Kathy at Podcast Movement. If you’re a podcaster, shout out. I would love, love, love to know. Reach out to me at Melissa Llarena. Let me know if you were also a podcast movement. But Dr. Kathy is someone who really stopped me in my tracks because she brings experiences that are so special. 

00:02:57 Melissa: For example, she’s cared for so many hospice patients at the end of their lives. And once you have, I believe, those sort of genuine conversations, no bullshit, absolutely unfiltered, there’s just no way you can look at your calendar in the same way with any hesitation to put out into the world, whatever it is in your heart, whatever it might be on your laptop right this moment. And if you’re watching this on YouTube, you’re like literally seeing me point to my laptop and be as expressive as I can because I want this conversation to really get through to you at a time thousand and one levels. Dr. Kathy is amazing. 

00:03:44 Melissa: And I mean, if she doesn’t present the case for why you should let go of perfectionism and get out whatever it is that you have on your laptop or as I call it, go from laptop to live, then I don’t know how else to help you, honestly. Dr. Kathy brings wisdom that I think, again, it’s just so special because those conversations between someone who is at the end of their life and a medical practitioner. I mean, they’re cherished and confidential, but they are, my goodness, wisdom, wisdom packed.

00:04:18 Melissa: I also want to invite you before I start this conversation with Dr. Kathy, as I belovedly call her, I want to invite you to do something that you have never done before. Like right now, I would love for you, let’s say that you’re like driving or running or doing laundry and you’re like in the middle of it, it’s worthy of stepping to the side. It’s worthy of stopping whatever it is that you’re doing right now. Going to Instagram, go to @MelissaLlarena and I want you to tell me what is that thing that is currently on your laptop that you’ve been meaning to get out into the world.

00:04:58 Melissa: What is on your laptop right now that you have yet to press send? What is on your laptop right now that at the end of the day, it’s perfectionism that has held you back from completing it? What is that thing? All you have to do is just send me a DM on Instagram, letting me know what that thing is. Here’s the reason why this works. Accountability, saying it out loud to a stranger or to someone that you’ve met. It works. When I went to another conference, Mom 2.0, I did this with someone there. Her name is Amanda, and she’s amazing. And I told her, I said, I’m going to give you my book, Fertile Imagination in paperback version, signed for free on the condition that you actually write your book. 

00:05:51 Melissa: And I spoke to her two days ago and she wrote her full manuscript. It is completely off her laptop and out into whoever’s going to help her edit it. Like it works. So I wanna invite you right now to do something that you have never done before, before we get into the conversation about perfectionism, ruining dreams, especially ruining dreams for anyone that has ever felt insecure about putting their real authentic self out there. And I want you to send me a DM with that thing that you’ve been meaning to get out the door, but has been held in hostage format or purgatory of your laptop, whatever it is, just name it, DM it to me, because I want to hold you accountable and it works. 

00:06:35 Melissa: Trust me about that. And this is going to be like once in a lifetime opportunity. I invite you as a listener of the Mom Founder Imagination Hub right now before this conversation continues to go ahead and send me that DM on Instagram. Details are in the show notes or in the description if you’re on YouTube and tell me what you have intended to get out, but perfectionism has held you from doing so. 

00:07:02 Melissa: All right, so let’s meet this today’s wonderful guest. Dr. Zhang, she’s a certified integrative life coach and hypnotist, hospice care doctor, and host of her own podcast, the Purpose Filter Podcast, where she shares deathbed, wisdom, and actionable shortcuts for a more fulfilled life. Here’s the thing, while that topic of death sounds like it’s a downer, for lack of a better phrase, it is the truth. It is reality. And the most important thing that I think, you know, Dr. Kathy shares in this conversation is the simple fact that that is one of the most sobering experiences you could ever experience, whether it’s the death of a loved one, or your own, you know, health scare, whatever it might be, if it’s emotionally very much of a shocking experience and a life disruptor.

00:08:04 Melissa: That is often what it takes for someone to actually take something that’s on their laptop right now and put it out into the world and make it live. And I don’t want that to be what it takes for you to do that, which is why I’m inviting you to Instagram right now. DM me that thing that you have been holding hostage in your brain or in your laptop that you as a mom founder want to get out and live in the world. I will hold you accountable.

00:08:33 Melissa: So in this conversation, we’re gonna talk about a number of things. So whether it’s making peace with doing something imperfectly, whether you need death in terms of someone else’s to interrupt a pattern that has been holding you back, whether as a mother comparing yourself to perfection on Instagram is a good thing or a bad thing or like a not useful at all thing, but I’ve been guilty myself. And then also, you know, what might you consider in terms of things you can do so that you don’t feel like you’re held hostage of the anxiety that might pop up for you when you’re about to hit send to an email to a stranger because you want to ask them for funding as an example. 

00:09:19 Melissa: So this conversation is very valuable. And I honestly think that it’s one that you have to share. Like immediately. If you know a Mom Founder who you think is absolutely brilliant has great ideas, uses her imagination, and you know she’s got some good stuff stuck in her laptop, share this episode with her. You could share it easily on YouTube, you could share it easily in the platform that you’re listening to this, if it’s just an audio, but do something, take action, because that’s the whole point of life, to take action. 

00:09:54 Melissa: So I wanna invite you to send me on Instagram that one thing that you’ve been holding back that you definitely want to put out into the world so I can hold you accountable. Accountability works. I wanna help you because I believe that Mom Founders, anything that you wanna create, chances are, it’s gonna be nourishing to the world, to the environment. And I want to support you. I wanna lift you up and make you soar beyond this need or desire or the trepidation of doing something imperfectly. All right, enjoy the conversation.

00:10:26 Melissa: If you want to learn more about Dr. Kathy, all the details are in the show notes or in the YouTube description. And if you want to continue to follow this podcast, it’s every Tuesday for Mom Founders, helping you use your imagination, dream bigger, go ahead. Just subscribe, subscribe. You already did something you were never thinking to do, which is sending me a DM, but subscribe or follow me officially. Click that button in the audio format. Thank you very much and enjoy the conversation.

00:10:56 Melissa: Dr. Kathy, I am thrilled to have you on the podcast. How are you?

00:11:00 Dr. Kathy: I am amazing. Thank you so much for having me, Melissa. 

00:11:05 Melissa: I am excited because we physically met first, which does not happen a lot. We were both at PodFest in Florida. 

00:11:15 Dr. Kathy: That’s right. And you had your beige hat and like you were just walking around. And I was like, I know exactly who that is. 

00:11:21 Melissa: Yeah, like see that beige hat thing, anyone that’s curious, you can see it on Instagram, @MelissaLlarena, but that was like a risk I took because I’m a New Yorker and I heard I heard you’re a New Yorker. And so in New York, it’s like, you know, Dr. Kathy, you’re in the uniform. You have at least black zoom top, you know, right? And so the hat thing is beige. And so I don’t know, I just thought I put it out there. It was kind of like stepping out of my comfort zone but like trying to own it. So I don’t know. So did it work? Did I look like I kind of owned it or was it like clunky weird?

00:12:05 Dr. Kathy: No, you totally did. I thought that that was just like, you’re a hat girl, you know, or a hat lady. 

00:12:10 Melissa:  Oh, now we’re going far. 

00:12:12 Dr. Kathy: In a good way. 

00:12:05 Melissa: At least I’m not a cat lady. Nah, I don’t know. Maybe you have cats. I don’t know. I’ve met a lot of cat people. They’re great people. But here’s a question. Here’s a question. So, you know, coming off of this whole like, does somebody, you know, put like their best foot forward, like just aesthetically appearances, right? Or like, does somebody, you know, prepare their elevator pitch when they go to events and just have that illusion of being like, you know, the I got my shit all together, entrepreneur, slash, in my case, mom, you know, in your case, professional doctor. Like, what do you make of that idea of perfectionism and being perfect?

00:12:12 Dr. Kathy: Yeah, it’s such a great and kind of loaded question because I think at conferences, we, in a sense, have to be a little bit prepared so that we’re not caught off guard, right? And especially if you’re someone like me, who’s like really observant and like you are too, if you get a sense that people are not paying attention to you or they’re, you know, like, oh, who is this person? Then we get self-conscious and then we can’t be our best selves and we can’t talk about what we do and how we help people. And so I do think that there’s a level of general preparedness that we should all have.

00:13:40 Dr. Kathy: And at the same time, I know you’ve probably seen this in conferences where there are some people who are only elevator pitch, who are just so rehearsed. And you’re like, okay, where’s the human? Where’s the person behind the brand or the business or the podcast? And so I think having that balance between being like, you know what, okay, if I mess up my elevator pitch, it’s okay because I’m a human and I wanna have human connections. And I think that’s what people are really searching for these days is authenticity, is connection, is being like, is that person genuine?  Because then I’m more likely to, you know, you talk with mom entrepreneurs. I’m more likely to like, know, and trust them, and maybe pay them too. 

00:14:26 Melissa: Totally agree. I think, and I think we’ve gotten smart enough to kind of like sift through what’s not really real, real, real, real. I think anyone can appreciate the fact that, let’s say you do go on Instagram and you wanna present yourself in a professional manner. There’s a place for that and it makes sense. But is that like what you would put in your stories? I don’t know, maybe, maybe not. But I think, that relatability is part of it too. It’s kind of like, wait a minute, are they on a high horse? Are they like, do they think they’re better than me? I don’t know if I’m talking just like a New Yorker, but these are like real thoughts that I’ve had. 

00:15:06 Dr. Kathy: Totally. And I think there’s some people who have big followings and the person that comes to mind right now is Mel Robbins, right? And so she has a big following and a lot of people are just like, look, she’s just like you and I. And she posts relatable content that really isn’t related sometimes to what she’s trying to put out there. She usually talks about growth and personal development and anxiety. But there was, I think, one reel I saw her put out, which was literally just how she packs a suitcase. 

00:15:34 Dr. Kathy: And she was traveling somewhere and she was like, you know what? At some point, if it gets too big, I just sit on it. And then I zip it around. And so I remember that reel because I was like, oh, this woman is just like you and I in a sense. And I think that’s what makes her appealing to so many people because they also feel that connection with her. 

00:15:56 Melissa: That’s a hundred percent true. And I think, you know, speaking of Mel Robbins, like there are a lot of reasons why people might not feel as like related to someone like that. But I think she humbles herself to a certain extent, you know, to find that commonality. Like we can all talk about, you know, giving high fives, or we could all talk about, you know, all the other like little tricks that are always science backed by Mel Robbins. 

00:16:24 Melissa: And I think, I think there’s the charm there, but what I’ve seen, what I’ve seen, and maybe it’s just in my scene, literally, which tends to be oftentimes, you know, living in like a really great school district surrounded by fancy schmancy houses. What I’ve seen are highly curated, perfect perfectionist like pictures of families that are so perfectly color coded. I’m just like, wow, that’s deep. Or I see, you know, kids that are over scheduled. But they’re forced to be as perfect as possible. You know what I mean?

00:17:10 Melissa: Like this is what I see and what I notice as a mom. And in business, I would say you see similar things. It just kind of depends what the person is selling. Cause sometimes you could sell authenticity and sometimes you sell like the ideal life. I’m just wondering from your perspective, the conversations you’ve had with like real deal people. You know, whether it’s people that are literally on their deathbeds, you know, or people that have been very ill for whatever reason. I’m just curious, like what has anybody ever said? I’m really glad I took that family picture where we all had the beautiful beige hues on, you know, and with the background of the beach. 

00:17:53 Dr. Kathy: No, never, never, ever. And I’ve taken care of thousands of patients, dying patients and talk to thousands of them on their deathbed. What people really care about at the end of the day or at the end of their lives is being true to themselves. They wish they had the courage to be themselves or they wish they had the courage to be disliked or just genuine and a human being instead of living this fantasy life or the life that other people expected of them. And when it comes to perfection, no one says, oh my God, I’m so glad that I, whatever, waited to do something that I really cared about because I really wanted it to be perfect and I delayed it for years and years, or I never got around to it because I wanted it to be perfect. 

00:18:45 Dr. Kathy: No one ever says they’re so glad that they did that. Everyone, not everyone, the majority of people who do have regrets say, I wish I’d started sooner. I wish I had just taken a risk. I wish I had just allowed myself to be like, you know what, I’ll figure it out along the way. And I think that is such a wonderful perspective for the rest of us, who maybe are years and decades away from our deathbeds, to be able to learn that and be like, okay, those people have epiphanies. They know that their time is short. They know that there’s like a clarity that comes with knowing that you don’t have very long to live.

00:19:30 Dr. Kathy: And it provides a perspective that when we, in our normal daily lives, school pickups, or like taking care of our business and trying to work out and eat right and all this stuff, that kind of gets blurred sometimes because we’re so caught up in the moment in our own lives. And so if we can take a step back and be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, perfectionism, no one cares about it at the end of life, no one. Absolutely no one. What they do care about is that they wish they had started sooner.  They wish they hadn’t let it have such a big hold over them.

00:20:07 Melissa: I think, like, I really wish that we could somehow create a scenario where we force an epiphany. Right? Like some sort of squeeze page landing page thing that just like forces us to like be like holy cow this is actually it. Have you in your own practice you know and speaking to people doing your own work like have you ever been able to get to a place where holy cow i didn’t realize, yeah, this is it.

00:20:50 Dr. Kathy: Mm-hmm, yeah. And so it’s such a great point because one of the things that I say over and over and over again is that like, when I talk to people who have either lost a loved one or they themselves have had like a life-threatening event or like a scare or they were in a car accident, something where they experienced near death, they’re always changed afterwards. They’re like, oh my God, my mom died and I realized that life is short and I need to finally, I don’t know, start writing that book I’ve always wanted to write. Or, oh my God, I got into a car accident and I almost died and I realized I need to spend more time with my kids and a little bit less time at the office. 

00:21:35 Dr. Kathy: And so I always say that it’s not as if someone gets into a bad car accident and they automatically just kind of like get a download from somewhere and that allows them to be like, I’m gonna spend more time with my kids or I’m gonna lose 100 pounds or someone loses a loved one, they’re like automatically get the skills to stop smoking cigarettes or something like that. It’s really that it’s a pattern interrupt. And that’s what I do with my clients and talk about with coaching and hypnosis and all this stuff. 

00:22:09 Dr. Kathy: What bigger pattern interrupt is there in life to kind of just shake you awake and someone dying than you or someone coming straight on with death, it’s a huge pattern interrupt. And that comes with a lot of emotion, usually negative. But for some people, they’re able to turn that experience to something that allows them to grow. And so when you’re saying, like, I wish we could just have a landing page or something that would just squeeze us and force us to have that, it’s really, it’s doable for us. 

00:22:44 Dr. Kathy: It just takes a little bit longer because, you know, to have something to have the emotional intensity as losing a loved one, right? Then combined with the clarity and the kind of snapping you back to reality, that happens a lot faster, whether we like it or not, with something like death and dying. And we can generate that for ourselves if we hear a quote from somewhere where we’re like, oh my God, that’s life-changing. 

00:23:13 Dr. Kathy: Or we see someone’s, I don’t know, speech or TED talk here, your podcast, whatever it is. And then if we can generate enough emotion behind it to be like, no, I have to change, this has to change, this cannot go on any longer, then we can have the same transformations and hopefully with a little bit less pain than losing a loved one. 

00:23:37 Melissa: I would agree completely. I think there has to be something that arouses something inside of you.  And when I was working on my book Fertile Imagination, and I was just in the part where you’re doing final edits, for example, I met a mom at the library who had written her own books, and her book didn’t get really read by many people, right? And so for me, it wasn’t so much that I felt aroused inside as much as I felt like I saw what would be possible if I didn’t get my act together and like do things that were hella scary. 

00:24:26 Melissa: It’s like I saw my future in me. It was almost like, now that I think about it, like Scrooge, you know, the ghost of past, present, future, or whatever. It was like that. It was like, oh my God, this could be me if I don’t get the courage to like start like reaching out to 25 strangers every single day, you know, and that put me in a seat in a place where I did break my keyboard, full transparency. I have my external one right here. But like I would tell myself as I was typing aggressively, and maybe loudly, I would tell myself I was like, wait a minute, what if this really changes my life?  And it was her. She’s no idea, by the way. It was her that was like, holy cow, that could be me. 

00:25:16 Dr. Kathy: Exactly. And that’s what people do, like Olympic athletes, in a sense, with visualization. They see themselves over and over, hitting the tennis ball, touching the wall at the end of their swim, or running the race. And so they visualize that. And that’s just all the brain and allowing the brain to see that reality and working with our brains and psychology and some of the things that I do with my clients is knowing that the brain and humans respond to avoiding pain and moving towards pleasure. 

00:25:59 Dr. Kathy: And so for you, in that instance, you were like, there’s no way that I wanna be the person who’s like, oh my God, my book didn’t get a lot of views. And so you’re like, I’m avoiding that pain like nobody’s business. And so I’m going to go out and do the things necessary to avoid that painful scenario, which could be a possibility in my future if I don’t do the work. Right. And then to have the pleasure of you then being like, you know what, how awesome would it be if this actually does change people’s lives? 

00:26:33 Dr. Kathy: If I think I heard you say like, you know, I get a hundred Amazon reviews and it gets shown to 3 million moms or something like that. And then so combining those two, avoiding pain and going towards pleasure, if we can build those scenarios in our brains, then it makes it more real. Because the brain can’t tell what’s actually happening versus what you’ve visualized in advance, which is why sports psychologists do that with Olympic athletes. If it works for them, why shouldn’t it work for us? 

00:27:03 Melissa: Absolutely. And so it sounds to me to kind of go back to being a perfectionist and such. It sounds to me that there has to be then, once you’ve identified, okay, this is gonna bring me pain, let me avoid that, and this is the pleasure that I seek, let me run towards that. It seems to me that then at some point, there’s this, okay, it’s worth it to make peace with doing something imperfectly, because what we’re saying here is that some new behaviors and actions are gonna be taking place. And if you’ve never done something before, you might look like a fool doing it at first. So what do you think? 

00:27:43 Dr. Kathy: Absolutely. And what always comes to mind and what I have to remind myself, because I’m not perfect and I get hung up on things too, is that if I make it more about myself, let’s say I’m having trouble posting on social media and with my business, if I am like, oh my God, I don’t know if it’s the right template to use or is this the best font or what if the colors don’t match with my Instagram grid or something, then nothing happens because I’m in myself. I’m worried about myself or I’m worried about other people’s judgment of me. 

00:28:19 Dr. Kathy: But then if I step out and be like, wait, what if this helps one person? What if this imperfect, raggedy looking graphic, raggedy looking graphic just is exactly what one person needed to hear today. And what if it helps someone? And then if I step outside of myself, I’m like, all right, you know what? It doesn’t matter. It’s not about me. We’re here to help. We’re here to change people’s lives. We’re here to improve the quality of their lives. And so when we step out of ourselves and we make it about others, then the hold of perfectionism and imposter syndrome and all of these other things just quiets down to the point where that resistance is a little bit lower and we can just take action. 

00:29:09 Melissa: I’m wondering, so maybe from your own life experience, like, was there a moment where you decided that being imperfect or doing something imperfectly was necessary because you really wanted something? Was there a moment that also demonstrated to you that, holy cow, if I let go of perfectionism, I could really grow my business or be successful in a particular way.

00:29:38 Dr. Kathy: I would say maybe, maybe not. So it was a combination of just doing things over and over again and realizing that I wasn’t going to die from putting out an imperfect post or email or a podcast episode. And so through that, it was kind of just like, all right, each time I do this, I’m showing myself that I can have my own back by not being perfect. Right? It’s not that I’m trying to control everything, but it’s like, if I can control myself, if I can handle my own emotions, if I can regulate my own nervous system, and that’s what I talk to my clients about all the time, we can’t control the external environment. 

00:30:21 Dr. Kathy: Moms, you can’t control how your kids are going to be. You can try to influence them and nurture them and teach them, but you can’t control anyone else. But we can control ourselves. And so if we have our own backs, if we’re like, hey, you know what? This might make me really overwhelmed, but I have the tools, I know how to breathe, I know other things to interrupt anxiety, then that will help with things like perfectionism and trying to grow our business and trying to make an impact on the world. 

00:30:52 Dr. Kathy: I would say that I’ve seen other people doing what I wanna do and doing it really well, and then being like, you know what? They have typos in their copy, right? They, you know, have their pictures aren’t perfect and polished. They’re humans just like I am. They just chose to disregard their desire to be perfect in exchange for having the impact that they wanna have on people. And I was like, you know what, if they could do it, like what’s stopping me? What’s stopping you? What’s stopping any of us? Why not us?

00:31:30 Dr. Kathy: And I want to see more women, more women of color, more moms, you know, all of these people out there in the world, because, you know, some, and I hate to say this, sometimes they’re like, if we only just had the confidence of like a middle-aged white man, you know, imagine what we could do, in a sense. 

00:31:51 Melissa: Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly. And I think, you know, I mean, there’s like, obviously, like practical things too. So like, as I think about my target audience. Like, let’s say you have a business, right? Like, sometimes it’s also just a barometer of like who you’re looking to serve and support and make an impact on. So for me, let’s just imagine, you know, Mom Entrepreneurs and I’m all self-conscious or whatever, of, you know, a post or something that’s supposed to be perfect looking. 

00:32:23 Melissa: Well, you know, to be honest, a mom entrepreneur like myself, like one I had a conversation with the other day. You know, we’re a lot like messy bun kind of people, you know, and if we’re looking at Instagram, chances are we have really baggy sweatpants and we’re running to pick up the kids and we all have socks that belong to our kids on. Like that’s just like my reality, you know, I’ve worn Minecraft socks and any mom that says she has and is just lying. So you’ve got to be mindful of that.

00:32:53 Melissa: But when I started my coaching practice and I was, you know, supporting marketing executives in corporations around the world, that is different, right? So like I got called on that. It was like somebody that was working at a beauty company. So that makes sense. Telling me, you know, hey, your videos should be more polished and you should use, he didn’t say this, but this is what he meant, corporate jargon and stuff. And that’s also a signal, right? Is that in alignment with who I really am or is that not in alignment with who I can consistently be? 

00:33:27 Melissa: So your point, Dr. Kathy, as far as what really matters when it’s the end of your life, being authentically you, is 100% the option that should bring you way more pleasure than the pain of appearing imperfect to your friends. 

00:33:48 Dr. Kathy: Yeah, absolutely. And then when we are not who we are on the inside, when we’re not authentic, that creates a disconnect. And when there’s a disconnect that manifests in different ways, physically, right, there are some people who, I know a friend of mine who literally gets eczema all over his body when he’s not in alignment. And he didn’t realize what it was before, he just thought it was eczema and all this stuff, but there was triggers for that that would make it worse when he was holding himself back from saying something or not being aligned with himself. 

00:34:27 Dr. Kathy: So there are psychological stressors too, and feeling overwhelmed and stressed and that having an impact on our physical health and spiritually, all these things, when we’re not in, again, alignment, when we’re not ourselves, that shows up in our bodies. It affects our mental and emotional health. It affects our relationships with people. And so I think it’s one of these things where people are chasing it in some ways, but they’re also not allowing themselves to be who they actually are because they think they have to be someone else for society, for their parents, for their kids, for their friends, for their spouse, their partner, whatever it is.

00:35:12 Dr. Kathy: And at the end of life, people realize that what was it all for? Like, really? What was the point of doing that because you get to the end of your life, you can’t change a damn thing. But if you’re hearing this now, maybe there’s something you can do about it. 

00:35:33 Melissa: Yeah, absolutely. And I think we could conclude there because that was a mic drop. Dr. Kathy, where can listeners follow you and ask about your services?

00:35:48 Dr. Kathy: Yeah, so my website is luyikathyzhang, L-U-Y-I, Kathy with a K, Z-H-A-N-G, and I’m on Instagram @PurposeFilter. I’m on LinkedIn too, we can put that in the show notes, but I imagine, you know, those are a great place to start to find out more about me. 

00:36:07 Melissa: So, Dr. Kathy just said to find her on Instagram, so that means we could hold her accountable for posting at least every single day. 

00:36:13 Dr. Kathy: Oh my god, yes, please, I need it.

00:36:14 Melissa: And not that it’s going to be raggedy, but you said the word and it’s just like really funny. And it’s okay if there’s something that gets, you know, put out there that’s raggedy. It’s like totally fine. As long as it’s an everyday sort of consistent thing, that’ll be good enough, my friend. Good enough. Thank you for this conversation, Dr. Kathy. I think it’s urgent. It’s really important.

00:36:39 Dr. Kathy: Thank you so much for having me and bringing this topic to light because it affects so many people.

00:36:44 Melissa: Definitely.

00:37:11 Melissa: Wasn’t that conversation sobering? For me, I think that reminder that this is a finite experience that we’re experiencing right now from a human perspective is something that I forget way to often. And I think it’s a shame because as a meditation practitioner, it’s something that I have been taught even now in my training with Jeff Cornfield. I am learning to appreciate, be reminded, and to be aware of loss, of grief, and of the fact that there’s an impermanence to everything and we shouldn’t grasp to life. 

00:37:24 Melissa: Isn’t that interesting how I could tell you all of this, but then on a day-to-day basis, I’ll get stuck and I’ll be like, okay, I cannot download this file from Dropbox, God help me, how am I gonna get through the day? Such silly things, right? So perfectionism, don’t let it get to you. That’s the big, big, big point.

00:37:42 Melissa: And also, you know, there are ways that you can, for yourself, figure out how to have an emotionally significant experience instead of having to endure death so that you can actually move forward and interrupt your own pattern. Dr. Kathy shared one idea in this episode. The second thing out of the three that I think are really creative and ways that you can use your imagination as a mom that has a super power is  this idea that, okay, what tools might be helpful for me to interrupt things? How do I feel before I hit send on an unfinished product? Or maybe not the best product that I could produce, but the product that I was able to do in between schlepping the kids from swim practice to wherever. 

00:38:29 Melissa: Third point that I think is really worthy of just like, you know, saying over and over and over and over again. So your brain is really interesting in the sense that, and Dr. Kathy said it, if you visualize something, your brain is not going to know the difference. Like, did it really happen or was it something that I’m just making up. And so visualization really, really works, but you’ve got to believe yourself. You cannot bullshit yourself. I feel like I need a billboard that says that you cannot bullshit yourself. It’s just a near impossibility. 

00:39:02 Melissa: So what’s important there, and I shared it with Dr. Kathy in this episode, is if you honestly think to yourself, like, wow, if I keep emailing all these people before my book launch, I might actually become a success. And if you keep saying that to yourself, somewhat like an affirmation, but one that you believe, it really works. So I hope you enjoyed this conversation.

00:39:27 Melissa: Send me the DM. That’s the whole point of this. Send me the DM on Instagram @MelissaLlarena. If you don’t have Instagram, just go ahead to the show notes and find the way, your way to catch me and tell me what do you have that’s locked in your laptop that you wanna make live? I wanna hold you accountable. It works. And I know how to push people with tough love, but also gentle understanding. I get it. I get your bandwidth.

00:39:57 Melissa: I get the emotional burden of motherhood. I get how launching a business and the uncertainty and the amount of, you know, either hustle or whatever you want to call it can absolutely wear you down. And I want to hold you accountable because I know whatever it is that is stuck in that laptop, chances are it’s just because you want to present yourself as fully perfect or you feel insecure, it’s not good enough to your standards but something tells me it’s good enough.

00:40:28 Melissa: So go ahead and DM me that thing that’s locked in your laptop but should be live. Do it right now if you haven’t done it yet. And again, check out Dr. Kathy, she’s amazing. Thank you again and until next Tuesday. And if you wanna keep following me, it’s so simple, right? It’s like everybody on YouTube tells you the same thing. It’s like subscribe to the channel or follow me officially on iTunes or Spotify whichever place you prefer.

00:40:55 Melissa: Thank you so much again. This is Melissa Llarena. I’m appreciative of you. And come on now, it’s like perfectionism is not worth it. It’s not worth it. Get out what’s on your heart. That is like the biggest healing that you can actually experience and give to the world. Let’s make an impact. DM me, I wanna hold you accountable. Bye.